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	<title>Comments on: Dave Winer &amp; Steve Gillmor are my friends</title>
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		<title>By: McD McBlog</title>
		<link>http://www.crunchnotes.com/2006/03/16/dave-winer-steve-gillmor-are-my-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-1788</link>
		<dc:creator>McD McBlog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Mar 2006 16:57:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crunchnotes.com/?p=169#comment-1788</guid>
		<description>Mike,

Attorney-Client privlege aside. You could at least show a little respect for the benefit Rogers work did for Dave and you.

I&#039;m going to assume you&#039;re just angry now and won&#039;t budge. A good trate fora lawyer and not a bad one in a friend.

&quot;Rogers is manipulating the facts to tell a story that is different than reality.&quot; We can only surmise which situation Roger&#039;s is manipulating: weblog.com or this new conflagration over feeds.scripting.com.

I have read everything I can on the RSS Advisory Board  
manipulating and Rogers recent attempts at negotiations with Dave Winer and I have come to my own conclusions. They are consistent with a pattern of business and blogging behaviors from both Dave and Rogers.

If there are any facts available to indicate that
Dave Winer can negotiate a win-win resolution over feeds.opml.com I&#039;d love to see them. He last message on this point was that Rogers would still have to deal with him.

Long time Winer watchers know how persistent and dedicated Dave can be when he make something a priority. But like the Podshow conclusion to the melt down of his Adam Curry relationship Dave will likely learn once again: &quot;get it in writing&quot;. Anger and malice have little legal standing.

You are a lawyer and might see Dave a small clue in that regard. &quot;feeds.scripting.com&quot; is indeed a web site that could be pointed to in a day or two and life coudl resume as Rogers and Dave agreed verbaly. Dave&#039;s got text on the site indicating his pleasure with Rogers miraculous productivity bring the site into service. 

Now Dave wants the work for no compensation. He&#039;s angry again and wants a pound of flesh for Rogers defection over RSS control: likely a by product of their inability to agree on some simple steps.

So, my point to you is: give Winer a call and talk him down from the ledge. He&#039;s just angry and needs an outlet for some of the recent events that have raised his ire. Try to stave off the Jihad on Dave&#039;s short list... and throw a few less bombs into the mix while you&#039;re at it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike,</p>
<p>Attorney-Client privlege aside. You could at least show a little respect for the benefit Rogers work did for Dave and you.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m going to assume you&#8217;re just angry now and won&#8217;t budge. A good trate fora lawyer and not a bad one in a friend.</p>
<p>&#8220;Rogers is manipulating the facts to tell a story that is different than reality.&#8221; We can only surmise which situation Roger&#8217;s is manipulating: weblog.com or this new conflagration over feeds.scripting.com.</p>
<p>I have read everything I can on the RSS Advisory Board<br />
manipulating and Rogers recent attempts at negotiations with Dave Winer and I have come to my own conclusions. They are consistent with a pattern of business and blogging behaviors from both Dave and Rogers.</p>
<p>If there are any facts available to indicate that<br />
Dave Winer can negotiate a win-win resolution over feeds.opml.com I&#8217;d love to see them. He last message on this point was that Rogers would still have to deal with him.</p>
<p>Long time Winer watchers know how persistent and dedicated Dave can be when he make something a priority. But like the Podshow conclusion to the melt down of his Adam Curry relationship Dave will likely learn once again: &#8220;get it in writing&#8221;. Anger and malice have little legal standing.</p>
<p>You are a lawyer and might see Dave a small clue in that regard. &#8220;feeds.scripting.com&#8221; is indeed a web site that could be pointed to in a day or two and life coudl resume as Rogers and Dave agreed verbaly. Dave&#8217;s got text on the site indicating his pleasure with Rogers miraculous productivity bring the site into service. </p>
<p>Now Dave wants the work for no compensation. He&#8217;s angry again and wants a pound of flesh for Rogers defection over RSS control: likely a by product of their inability to agree on some simple steps.</p>
<p>So, my point to you is: give Winer a call and talk him down from the ledge. He&#8217;s just angry and needs an outlet for some of the recent events that have raised his ire. Try to stave off the Jihad on Dave&#8217;s short list&#8230; and throw a few less bombs into the mix while you&#8217;re at it.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.crunchnotes.com/2006/03/16/dave-winer-steve-gillmor-are-my-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-1743</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Mar 2006 11:41:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crunchnotes.com/?p=169#comment-1743</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d say it is pretty unethical behavior for a lawyer to insinuate unethical behaviour by someone they were involved in a legal transaction with, then try and hide behind the shield of attorney-client priviledge when asked what the grounds for that statement are.

A judge or bar committe might well conlude that you have behaved in a manner deserving reprimand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d say it is pretty unethical behavior for a lawyer to insinuate unethical behaviour by someone they were involved in a legal transaction with, then try and hide behind the shield of attorney-client priviledge when asked what the grounds for that statement are.</p>
<p>A judge or bar committe might well conlude that you have behaved in a manner deserving reprimand.</p>
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		<title>By: &#60;buzzword-compliant /&#62; &#187; Blog Archive &#187; When Blogarati Attack</title>
		<link>http://www.crunchnotes.com/2006/03/16/dave-winer-steve-gillmor-are-my-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-1735</link>
		<dc:creator>&#60;buzzword-compliant /&#62; &#187; Blog Archive &#187; When Blogarati Attack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Mar 2006 00:37:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crunchnotes.com/?p=169#comment-1735</guid>
		<description>[...] Scoble weighs in on the competing lynch mobs, or at least on the group that&#8217;s been gathering around Rogers&#8217; blog. Mike Arrington, Winer&#8217;s former lawyer who is now better known for TechCrunch, takes a driveby potshot at Rogers without any sort of explanation. Rogers responds to Arrington&#8217;s comment here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Scoble weighs in on the competing lynch mobs, or at least on the group that&#8217;s been gathering around Rogers&#8217; blog. Mike Arrington, Winer&#8217;s former lawyer who is now better known for TechCrunch, takes a driveby potshot at Rogers without any sort of explanation. Rogers responds to Arrington&#8217;s comment here. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rogers Cadenhead</title>
		<link>http://www.crunchnotes.com/2006/03/16/dave-winer-steve-gillmor-are-my-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-1727</link>
		<dc:creator>Rogers Cadenhead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Mar 2006 20:06:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crunchnotes.com/?p=169#comment-1727</guid>
		<description>Thanks for reminding me about that post from VeriSign, Dan. I had forgotten about that. Before VeriSign&#039;s site launched, they invited me to look it over and make sure it included all of the features on Dave Winer&#039;s version of the site, and I did.

I hope that Michael Arrington will correct me if I&#039;m wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for reminding me about that post from VeriSign, Dan. I had forgotten about that. Before VeriSign&#8217;s site launched, they invited me to look it over and make sure it included all of the features on Dave Winer&#8217;s version of the site, and I did.</p>
<p>I hope that Michael Arrington will correct me if I&#8217;m wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.crunchnotes.com/2006/03/16/dave-winer-steve-gillmor-are-my-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-1726</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Mar 2006 18:55:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crunchnotes.com/?p=169#comment-1726</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry - attorney-client privilege prohibits me from discussing certain things. People should know that. it&#039;s not an excuse, I could lose my license to practice law. And I didn&#039;t start this discussion, Rogers did. All I am doing is saying, to the extent I am legally entitled to, that Rogers is manipulating the facts to tell a story that is different than reality. If I were a third party that was interested in this, I would read all of the information available to me, consider various personal incentives and reputations, and draw my own conclusions. But I would NOT simply attack people for writing their opinion.

Ben, I understand your point and today I would certainly do that (actually I would just not write about it at all). But back in July TechCrunch probably had 50 readers, it was a much different animal than it is today and I had no idea of what it would become. I just didn&#039;t think it was important at that time. Remember that hindsight is 20/20.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry &#8211; attorney-client privilege prohibits me from discussing certain things. People should know that. it&#8217;s not an excuse, I could lose my license to practice law. And I didn&#8217;t start this discussion, Rogers did. All I am doing is saying, to the extent I am legally entitled to, that Rogers is manipulating the facts to tell a story that is different than reality. If I were a third party that was interested in this, I would read all of the information available to me, consider various personal incentives and reputations, and draw my own conclusions. But I would NOT simply attack people for writing their opinion.</p>
<p>Ben, I understand your point and today I would certainly do that (actually I would just not write about it at all). But back in July TechCrunch probably had 50 readers, it was a much different animal than it is today and I had no idea of what it would become. I just didn&#8217;t think it was important at that time. Remember that hindsight is 20/20.</p>
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		<title>By: dan</title>
		<link>http://www.crunchnotes.com/2006/03/16/dave-winer-steve-gillmor-are-my-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-1725</link>
		<dc:creator>dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Mar 2006 18:05:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crunchnotes.com/?p=169#comment-1725</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s ironic that the blog world is no better than main stream media, and in the same post this gem is thrown out:

&quot;The only thing I will add is that I was part of the weblogs.com transaction and was also very dissapointed with Rogers Cadenheadâ€™s performance.&quot;

Nothing ot support it, no details, just a bomb thrown out to do some damage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s ironic that the blog world is no better than main stream media, and in the same post this gem is thrown out:</p>
<p>&#8220;The only thing I will add is that I was part of the weblogs.com transaction and was also very dissapointed with Rogers Cadenheadâ€™s performance.&#8221;</p>
<p>Nothing ot support it, no details, just a bomb thrown out to do some damage.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Tucker</title>
		<link>http://www.crunchnotes.com/2006/03/16/dave-winer-steve-gillmor-are-my-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-1722</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Tucker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Mar 2006 16:14:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crunchnotes.com/?p=169#comment-1722</guid>
		<description>And Mike, the fact that you did not disclose your work for weblogs.com (lawyering the rewrite deal in June) in your July profile of the site from last year is unfortunate.  Perhaps I&#039;m missing something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And Mike, the fact that you did not disclose your work for weblogs.com (lawyering the rewrite deal in June) in your July profile of the site from last year is unfortunate.  Perhaps I&#8217;m missing something.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Tucker</title>
		<link>http://www.crunchnotes.com/2006/03/16/dave-winer-steve-gillmor-are-my-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-1721</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Tucker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Mar 2006 16:06:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crunchnotes.com/?p=169#comment-1721</guid>
		<description>Keith Teare: 
&quot;RCâ€™s coding was actually of zero value to the transcation.&quot;

Michael Graves, VeriSign:
&quot;In any event, I appreciate the great resource Rogers has been throughout the acquisition and transition processes, and itâ€™s good to hear that Rogers wants to go further in this area. Weâ€™d be happy to work with Rogers on helping him realize his vision for ping. I think our goals for the future of ping are highly congruent.&quot;

http://www.infrablog.verisign.com/2005/10/cadenhead_king_of_ping_1.html

Yes, Keith, no value there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keith Teare:<br />
&#8220;RCâ€™s coding was actually of zero value to the transcation.&#8221;</p>
<p>Michael Graves, VeriSign:<br />
&#8220;In any event, I appreciate the great resource Rogers has been throughout the acquisition and transition processes, and itâ€™s good to hear that Rogers wants to go further in this area. Weâ€™d be happy to work with Rogers on helping him realize his vision for ping. I think our goals for the future of ping are highly congruent.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.infrablog.verisign.com/2005/10/cadenhead_king_of_ping_1.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.infrablog.verisign.com/2005/10/cadenhead_king_of_ping_1.html</a></p>
<p>Yes, Keith, no value there.</p>
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		<title>By: McD McBlog</title>
		<link>http://www.crunchnotes.com/2006/03/16/dave-winer-steve-gillmor-are-my-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-1714</link>
		<dc:creator>McD McBlog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Mar 2006 21:03:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crunchnotes.com/?p=169#comment-1714</guid>
		<description>Mike,

I didn&#039;t make my point well regarding the essential value of weblogs.com.

The site had an &quot;outtage&quot;. Imagine of it stayed out for days or longer. Roger&#039;s efforts stabilized the site while Dave could seek a buyer. It ran well during that stage of the project. You probably didn&#039;t have visibility into that earlier phase of the situation but it would have made negotiations diffferent if the site itself was unstable. 

Dave asked for help getting it stable and on-line again. It stopped collecting and reporting &quot;ping data&quot;. As you mention that value to Verisign was in that &quot;ping data&quot;. 

Rogers assisted in that effort under a lot of pressure and Dave was very grateful for the assistance.

If Rogers had not assisted is it safe to assume Dave would have got the service up and functional again? Maybe. But I&#039;d certainly have some sense of debt for the guy that protected my assets when the fire broke out. But subsequent events corrupted their relationship. You stand by your friends... some give up a lot more easily on a tested relationship.

Most of us aren&#039;t attacking Dave... we&#039;re questioning his judgement around some control issues with Rogers (related to RSS issues).

Rogers has made it clear here that he didn&#039;t have any ill will over the weblogs.com situation. That&#039;s yet another clue to the backstory. 

The rest of us are searching for some understanding of this perturbation in the RSS Community and how to talk Dave into seeking common ground.

There don&#039;t appear to be any villians here... just a lot of broken glass. It still makes no sense. Shelley Powers tried to get input from the parties involved but she also has history with Dave.

As a lawyer you might read the simple agreement Dave sent to Rogers to sign. Dave says he wouldn&#039;t sign it.
It sounds like an agreement that was not crafted in any sense to be fair based upon a snippet of language. 

So, stand by Dave, but understand what it means to blindly stand by someone who&#039;s not acting according to businesses ethics and practices you&#039;d personally endorse.

A mediator at this juncture would be wise to give the situation a fresh perspective. Perhaps as a friend you could counsel Dave in that regard privately, as you might counsel a friend dealing with a troublesome divorce. Let cooler headers strike a compromise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike,</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t make my point well regarding the essential value of weblogs.com.</p>
<p>The site had an &#8220;outtage&#8221;. Imagine of it stayed out for days or longer. Roger&#8217;s efforts stabilized the site while Dave could seek a buyer. It ran well during that stage of the project. You probably didn&#8217;t have visibility into that earlier phase of the situation but it would have made negotiations diffferent if the site itself was unstable. </p>
<p>Dave asked for help getting it stable and on-line again. It stopped collecting and reporting &#8220;ping data&#8221;. As you mention that value to Verisign was in that &#8220;ping data&#8221;. </p>
<p>Rogers assisted in that effort under a lot of pressure and Dave was very grateful for the assistance.</p>
<p>If Rogers had not assisted is it safe to assume Dave would have got the service up and functional again? Maybe. But I&#8217;d certainly have some sense of debt for the guy that protected my assets when the fire broke out. But subsequent events corrupted their relationship. You stand by your friends&#8230; some give up a lot more easily on a tested relationship.</p>
<p>Most of us aren&#8217;t attacking Dave&#8230; we&#8217;re questioning his judgement around some control issues with Rogers (related to RSS issues).</p>
<p>Rogers has made it clear here that he didn&#8217;t have any ill will over the weblogs.com situation. That&#8217;s yet another clue to the backstory. </p>
<p>The rest of us are searching for some understanding of this perturbation in the RSS Community and how to talk Dave into seeking common ground.</p>
<p>There don&#8217;t appear to be any villians here&#8230; just a lot of broken glass. It still makes no sense. Shelley Powers tried to get input from the parties involved but she also has history with Dave.</p>
<p>As a lawyer you might read the simple agreement Dave sent to Rogers to sign. Dave says he wouldn&#8217;t sign it.<br />
It sounds like an agreement that was not crafted in any sense to be fair based upon a snippet of language. </p>
<p>So, stand by Dave, but understand what it means to blindly stand by someone who&#8217;s not acting according to businesses ethics and practices you&#8217;d personally endorse.</p>
<p>A mediator at this juncture would be wise to give the situation a fresh perspective. Perhaps as a friend you could counsel Dave in that regard privately, as you might counsel a friend dealing with a troublesome divorce. Let cooler headers strike a compromise.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryant</title>
		<link>http://www.crunchnotes.com/2006/03/16/dave-winer-steve-gillmor-are-my-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-1713</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Mar 2006 16:28:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crunchnotes.com/?p=169#comment-1713</guid>
		<description>It seems unlikely that weblogs.com would have been very inclusive regarding ping data if it had stopped functioning for a period of months before the sale.

Probably also worth noting that while plenty of commenters have said Roger should get a cut of the weblogs.com deal, I haven&#039;t seen Roger say that. I personally don&#039;t think he should, for what very little it&#039;s worth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems unlikely that weblogs.com would have been very inclusive regarding ping data if it had stopped functioning for a period of months before the sale.</p>
<p>Probably also worth noting that while plenty of commenters have said Roger should get a cut of the weblogs.com deal, I haven&#8217;t seen Roger say that. I personally don&#8217;t think he should, for what very little it&#8217;s worth.</p>
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